"My Lord and my God"

Hi Don
Thanks for your interesting post. I'm happy to express my thoughts on those texts (below) that your friend mentioned in your discussion as proving the Jesus is God. Please excuse the HUGENESS of this post. I'm not good at writing things in a concise manner, so I do hope you can skim this info and take out whatever you think might be useful.

You wrote:

John 20:28........."My Lord and my God'......addressed to Jesus by Thomas and not contradicted by Jesus.

and Mat 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Luk 4:8 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. "

When Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." is considered,
it appears to support his contention that Jesus is indeed God and not 'The Son of God'.

I realise Jesus Christ is Divine, but not 'God, even the Father' :-

I have tried to address each of the above verses in the 'short book' below.

I imagine, from what you have written, that your friend's main question was "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?"

My answer to that question would be, "Absolutely!"

By way of explanation, in the same way that I am fully human, so the Son of God was truly God (divine).

The Bible clearly teaches that there are different types of beings in existence and that each being has attributes characteristic of its own nature.
Some beings that are identified and described in the Bible are:
Divine Beings
Angelic Beings
Heavenly Beast Beings (Rev 4:6 - 6-winged beasts, 'full of eyes' around the throne in heaven)
Human Beings
Earthly Beast Beings

(Please do not confuse the term 'being' with the theological term 'person'. A being is an individual independent being, but when used in a theologicial sense, a 'person' can be, still is, and was used in theological circles, to define 'character, personality, physical body, or character of office.' (see Webster’s Dictionary (1828) in the eBook "Identifying the Unknown God," section titled, "Ellen White’s Statements Regarding God" pages 485-493) pdf format available at: www.themeofthebible.com )

ANY divine being is called a god.
ANY angelic being is called an angel.
ANY human being is called a human.
ANY beast being is called a beast or animal.

Different types (or natures) of beings, possess different attributes. For example, divine beings are not created - all other beings are created.
Angelic beings cannot reproduce. Human beings can reproduce.

It appears that confusion arises over misunderstanding of the meaning of the terms 'god' and 'divine.' The word "god" is used as a a generic term for ANY divine being or a supposedly divine being (a pagan 'god'). The word 'god' does not identify a specific individual 'god' nor does it refer to the proper name of a specific being. Proper names of some 'gods' would be necessary to identify them from other 'gods.' eg the trinity, Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Isis, Artemis, Baal etc.

'Divine' and 'god' are terms that refer to the nature of the particular being. ANY god is always a divine being. ANY divine being is always a god. ANY divine being is called 'god.'

In the same way, ANY human being is a human. ANY beastly being is an animal. ANY angelic being is an angel.

In the Bible, it is clear that ANY divine being is a god being - but not every divine being is one specific and particular divine being whom Christians call the generic term of 'God.' This is what I believe you already understand, but I thought it best to explain it for other readers.

The Bible (and the SDA prophet Ellen White) teach that the divine being to whom Christians refer to as (the proper noun) 'God,' is the Father. The Father is a divine being. He is divine by nature. He is therefore a god-being. He is the "Only True god" according to Jesus in John 17:3 and to Ellen White, He was the Source of All Life - the Creator (see Desire of Ages p 21; Great Controversy p 479).

The Son of God is also equally as divine as His Father, but His identifying title is the Son of God. This title was given to the Son well before the incarnation when Christ came as a tiny baby to Bethlehem (Gal 4:4) . The Son of God is of course divine by nature. He is divine (a god-being) and this is a fact of which we can be certain because of His divine heritage, the act of His coming forth from His Father (Heb 1; Prov 8; Prov 30; John 1, Gal 4, John 3:16).

Just as a human being brings forth a baby human being, so when God brought forth His Son, the Son could be nothing other than a divine being - in fact the Son was as equally as divine as His Father. The Son can rightly be called by the proper name of God, for He is god (divine) by nature. (Psa 45:6; Heb 1:8; John 20:28). The Father, the Creator, created all things through His Son (John 1:3).

In saying that the Son is rightly identified as 'God' - a divine being, we are careful not to blur the distinction between the generic, common noun definition for 'god' (a divine being) and the proper noun (God -the name of a specific, individual divine being).

If you are a Seventh-day Adventist, the following might interest you.

Ellen White emphasises this distinction in the two following quotes:
Review and Herald 5 April,1906 para 6-8
“...Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. ... This was no robbery of God. 'The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,' he declares, 'before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth; while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth.' There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid.”

In Patriarch and Prophets p 34 and Desire of Ages p 764, Ellen White refers these concepts which she quoted above, (from Proverbs 22:8-30) to the origination of Christ from His Father; but the doctrine of the trinity denies her application of this Scripture to Christ.

Again Ellen White wrote in the Signs of the Times – 30 May, 1895
"He gave His only begotten Son— not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father’s person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Note that Ellen White makes it very clear that the Son of God was not the other divine being (who is also called 'God') i.e. the Father.

Elliot J Waggoner, of 1888 message fame, comments on this important distinction between the Father and His Son in his book, Christ and His Righteousness, ch 5 p 8. This book condensed the 1888 message and in it, Waggoner - a non-trinitarian Seventh-day Adventist minister, stated:
“Christ ‘is in the bosom of the Father,’ being by nature of the very substance of God and having life in Himself. He is properly called Jehovah, the self-existent One and is thus styled in Jeremiah 23:56, where it is said that the righteous Branch, who shall execute judgment and justice in the earth, shall be known by the name of Jehovah-tsidekenu--THE LORD, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Waggoner agreed with Moses who wrote under inspiration that the Son has the Father's authority - He speaks in the name (authority) of the Father, much as the police of a country say that they are authorised to do certain things, "in the name of the law."

Exodus 23:20, 21
"'Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. (21) Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.' Because of the miracle of the incarnation, the divine Son of God became the unique individual Jesus Christ."

According to Ellen White and EJ Waggoner, The Son of God was God, "in the highest sense" because He was begotten from a divine being - the Father. He became the 'Son of Man' - a human being - because He was begotten from a human mother. He then possessed both a divine and a human nature - that means that He was both a divine being and a human being. Jesus Christ was "god (a divine being) in the flesh" because He was at that stage, both a divine being and a human being.

The Jews were not confused upon this point. From what Christ said, the Jews knew that He was claiming to be the Messiah, the Son of God - a divine being, but not the Father Himself. Jesus said He was a divine being - a god-being - but He never claimed to be His Father (the Only True god) - whom as you already pointed out, Jesus called 'My Father.' Christ always claimed to be the Divine Son of God.

In John 8:58, Jesus was threatened with being stoned to death by the Jewish leaders. Christ was claiming to be a divine being, One Who had “divine life in Himself” - and not just a human being. It was this claim that upset the Jews to the point where they wanted to take the life of Christ. Clearly the Pharisees did not believe that Christ had "life in Himself" - that He had timeless being – or that He was in existence since before the time of Abraham. The Pharisees claimed that Christ was purely a human being and not a blend of the two natures – humanity and divinity.

Compare the following texts.
John 8:58
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:33, 36
“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”

Matthew 26:63
“But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.”

Matthew 27:40
“And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Ellen White, 2 Testimonies for the Church, p 208
“Close to the cross are the blind, bigoted, faithless priests and elders, taunting, mocking, and jeering: "Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save Thyself. If Thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking Him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said, I am the Son of God.”

Clearly, Christ claimed to be the Son of the One True God – whom He identified as His Father in John 17:3. The Jewish leaders confirmed that this also was their understanding of Christ's claims, in their communications with Jesus. He claimed to be God's Son at His trial.

Christ was claiming to possess divinity - a divine (god) nature. He did not claim to be the Supreme God, (His Father) - but an equally divine being - the Son of God. He claimed to be the divine Messiah sent by His Father. He did not claim to be “God the Son” though Christ was by nature divine - of the same nature as His Father. By inheritance, Christ was the divine Son of the Father. He was the divine Son of God, having the same divine nature as His Father. In this way, He was God (truly a divine being with 'life in Himself'). Christ knew that His Father was the One True God – the Supreme Being from Whom ALL life – even the life of the Son - ultimately proceeded.

Ellen White expressed this concept in the Desire of Ages and Great Controversy (above) - and Jesus declared that truth clearly in His prayer.

To whom does the Jesus refer to as the One True God? His Father.

John 17:3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Was Jesus Christ god? Absolutely.

Was Christ the same divine being whom He identified as the Only True God? No. Christ was the Son of that being identified as the Only True God.

Four verses were given at the beginning of this section, which are often thought to support the concept that Jesus is God (the Father) or part of a trinity, in stead of being the literal Son of God.

John 20:28........."My Lord and my God'......addressed to Jesus by Thomas

Firstly it is important to note that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for his act of worship.

Jesus was a divine (a god-being) and as the Father’s representative to the world, was authorised by the Father to receive worship (Heb 1:6).

The Father gave Moses a name by which He was to be identified in order to avoid confusion by use of the generic word for 'god'. The Son was authorised to be called by that name. (Exodus 23:21)

The Son was also called, "Michael" which means, "One who is LIKE God - the Father" not one who IS God the Father.

The Son was ‘the express image of His Father’s Person” (Heb 1:3) but He was not His Father.

The Son is LIKE the Father in His very being, in His nature, character and personality. This harmonises with John 1:1 which states that "In the beginning was the Word (logos – the spoken word) and the Word was with God (the Father) and the Word was god (divine).

A quick comment on the other verse cited at the beginning of this section:

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Luke 4:8 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

When Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." I

What is the context of these verses?
Jesus is referring Satan to the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-6) and the Mosaic law (Deut 6:4,5) where it is clearly stated that worship belongs to the Creator. Who is the Creator? The Only True God (John 17:3).

Jesus was not giving Satan a command saying, "Satan, get behind me for it is written, you had better worship me, your Lord and your god, and only me will you serve." Jesus never commanded anyone to worship Him, let alone Satan or his demons. Christ was making a non-negotiable statement to Satan that He, the Son of God, would only worship His Father and that He would never worship another god (i.e. such as the false god - Satan).

Hebrews 1:6
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

The Father is telling the inhabitants of the universe to worship His Son, for the Son is also worthy of worship. There is however, no text in the Bible that commands the universe to worship the Son above the Father but there is one that tells us to worship the Son, who is under the authority of the Father (1 Cor 15:28). There are instances in the Bible where the Son publicly proclaims to worship His Father, but none that suggest the Father worships His Son. For that matter, there is also lacking any Bible texts that suggest that the Holy Spirit worships either Father or Son or vice versa.

Another interesting study involves the differences that exist between the One True God and His Son.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss such an important topic. Sorry again that it's so long. I hope it's clear enough.

Blessings in Jesus
Sherlene

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