Adventist Review Article - Does God Kill?

[Sherlene]

A friend of mine sent me an article titled, "Does God Kill?" (which I've also posted on this thread). It was published by Adventist Review on-line version http://www.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html  and was written by Leslie Kay writes from Kingman, Arizona.

I have briefly skimmed it, nodding appreciatively in several places in agreement, except for the end section which claims that God does finally destroy sinners.  I want to read it in more depth later, but one point really stuck out as I skim read  it.

I think it is a positive aspect of the SDA church to permit controversial opinions to be published.  Other organisations aren't so willing to do that.  And I'm really pleased that the Review published such a positive article about God's character, but I still think they have a deeper understanding of God's character awaiting them.

In response to Leslie's article, I had the following thoughts.

I quote from the article:

Because Christ has already "tasted death for everyone," the lost die a tragically unnecessary, avoidable death. In rejecting His sacrifice in their behalf, they cause their guilt and condemnation to revert back upon themselves, and "at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death." By refusing to identify with Christ, the source of life and love, they have, by default, identified themselves with sin, becoming its virtual personification. And God, who is a consuming fire to sin wherever found, must finally consume them for the good of the universe.

I know the beginning of this paragraph captures a quote from Ellen White but I believe the author of the Review article concludes with a traditional assumption rather than a Biblical truth.

I don't believe that God tells every person, including His prophets all the truth at one time, but things are revealed as people can bear them. Even Jesus told His disciples, "I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear them now."  Perhaps we are able to bear this truth now and the Lord is teaching us about His character, which Ellen White states (as written in the Review article), "The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of [God's] character of love." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 415.

I believe that the Bible teaches us that there is no doubt that it is sin that destroys the sinner and that it is not an act of God.  "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23.  Note that Paul does not say, "the wages of sin is death which is the merciful gift that God gives to the wicked, but the merciful gift of God to the righteous is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."  If it doesn't say it, how is it possible that we always interpret it in that way?

When His creative power of life flashes out over the earth to remake it again, the sinful flesh (the death defect is in every cell of the body) simply ceases to exist for God is a consuming power to sin. His life causes death to cease to exist. Just as light causes darkness to cease to exist without any murderous intentions; just as heat destroys cold; just as life destroys death, in this way sinners cease to exist. God does not kill - never has and never will, but He also will not protect those who are determined to remain self-serving - who choose to die (suicide) rather than return God's love.

At the second coming, the Bible tells us repeatedly that "this body of sinful flesh" must be changed, and that "this corruption must put on incorruption" that this "mortal must put on immortality."  The reason that the saints are not consumed when Jesus returns is because they have "in the twinkling of an eye"  "put on incorruption" - ie they have a new body which does not have sin/death in every cell.

Recall Ellen White's experience recorded in Early Writings, p 54  (End of the 2300 Days)

"I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist."

If Ellen White, a repentant sinner, a born-again Christian, with the spirit of Jesus abiding in her, would have been instantly non-existent if she saw the Father's glory.  It was not sin in her mind, or cherished sin or any known sin that would have killed Ellen White, but the fact that was totally out of her control - her sinful physical body.

When Adam and Eve sinned, their bodies were changed.  The bright lights surrounding their previous holy bodies was extinguished and they experienced a physical bodily change.  This was the instant that sin was written into every cell of their bodies and hence into all progeny that were born from that time in the human family.

The human race was then doomed to die as humanity was separated from God and sin was programmed into human cells and this sin would cause their own death -body and mind.  As a remedy to the hopeless human condition,  Christ took sinful flesh upon Himself. A sinful body was prepared for Him so He could experience/taste death for every man (everyone).  It is "this body of sin and death" that Jesus took to the cross.  Christ defeated sin 'in the flesh.'

Finally, in the Bible, James tells us in James, that sin,  when it is finished (or mature), brings forth death.  It is sin, not God, that brings forth death.  God is the creator and wishes that we would come to Him that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

When Jesus cried over Jerusalem, He wasn't crying crocodile tears.  And He had nothing whatsoever to do with the destruction of the Jews who had rejected Him.  Why must we think evil of God when Jesus set us so clear an example?  The very seeds of death are in selfishness - which is sin.  It is in our blood.  It is in our body, but this fatal flaw will be repaired when Jesus comes to protect those who want to be with Him in an unselfish world.

I know that Christians all claim to be convinced of God's loving character, but it puzzles me how, after all this evidence in the Bible people can still accuse God of killing people? 

I am very encouraged that the Review published the article and I hope that in future they will continue to accept more of God's very special message until the earth is lightened with the glory of the 4th angel's message - the latter rain - and people are truly converted, ready to meet Jesus in His glorified body, having a transformed body - recreated in His own likeness.

What does anyone else think about this article?  Do my comments seem sound, logical and Biblical to you?

[Sherlene]

This is the article written by Leslie Kay from Kingman, Arizona and published in the Adventist Review, on-line edition.  The article can be found at: http://www.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html but here it appears to assist our forum discussion purposes.

BY LESLIE KAY
ANNY Gilbert1 was clearly a man on a mission. Sabbath lunch dispensed with, he settled himself on our couch, opened his Bible, and got down to the real business of his visit. Grinning amiably, his blue eyes sparkling with intensity, he asked, "What do you think? If a man wanted to win the affections of a woman, would he grab her by the arm, put a gun to her head, and demand, 'Love me or I'll kill you'?"
My husband and I readily admitted to the absurdity of this scenario. "So," Danny excitedly made his point, "in trying to win our affections, would God do the same--scare us into a servile submission with punishments and threats, then demand, 'Love Me or I'll kill you'?"
After again securing our agreement that such methods would be self-defeating, Danny took us on a scriptural journey calculated to convert us to his theological master passion: the idea that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how plain the biblical evidence to the contrary, God does not kill.
Does God kill? It's a question that raises Adventist hackles on both sides of the argument. Not only because we feel passionately about the answer, but because the very manner in which the question is phrased provokes extreme reactions. So for purposes of objectivity, let's ask it another (less volatile) way: In dealing with sin, does God ever find it necessary to take life? A thoughtful and thorough answer requires that we first explore the subject of God's wrath.
The Wrath Factor
"'God is love.' . . . His nature, His law, is love. It ever has been; it ever will be."2 Selfless in its nature and self-giving in its expression, this law of love constitutes "the foundation of the government of God," and "the happiness of all intelligent beings depends upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness."3
Sin, on the other hand, is love's antithesis. Self-centered in its nature and self-serving in its expression, the principle of sin is an alien, destructive force in God's universe. Because it brings such devastation to the children He loves, it provokes in His Father's heart a profound and justifiable hatred. Far from being arbitrary and vindictive, God's wrath is His absolute and irreconcilable antipathy toward the destructive principle of sin.
In fact, "to sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire."4 The problem is, sin doesn't exist in the abstract. Like the long, tenacious tendrils of a virulent cancer, sin entwines itself around, and attaches itself to, the minds and hearts of people. But because God doesn't want us to suffer its fate, He mercifully withholds the full measure of His justifiable wrath during our probationary time to give us opportunity to be separated from it, if we will.
If we won't, and choose instead to defiantly persist in sin even after "what may be known about God [has been made] plain to [us]" (Rom. 1:19, NIV), we become a snare to ourselves and others, and God is forced to shift from an attitude of withholding wrath to one of expressing it.
A Complex Interplay
Because the sin problem is so complex and deeply entrenched, at both the individual and corporate levels, the manner in which God expresses His wrath against sin is also complex and multifaceted. Walking a tightwire between His sovereign will and our freedom of choice, He must be both authoritative and flexible. The Bible record indicates that He deals with our defiance by engaging in a complex interplay of both passive and active disciplinary tactics, for redemptive and punitive purposes.
Romans 1:18-32 describes what could be called the passive expression of God's wrath, His "giving over" the stubbornly defiant to the consequences of their sinful choices. "Withdrawing His gracious aid and restraint,"5 God reluctantly abandons the persistently rebellious, not only to the natural consequences of their choices, but to the supernatural consequences, as well. This means that, at their own perverse insistence, they are left without divine protection to the forces of evil. Frightening as this is, most people have no problem envisioning a loving God expressing His wrath in this "passive" fashion.
It's the active expressions of God's wrath that cause us so much distress. Appalled at the image of our God of love and life behaving in an apparently unloving fashion, taking life that He has so graciously given, we've invented many creative and torturous explanations for His "strange work" (Isa. 28:21, NIV) of destructive intervention. We've blamed the forces of nature gone haywire, human passion and intrigue, and the devil himself for past and future episodes of divine retributive judgment, including the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the seven last plagues. Yet the record stands that although rebellious humanity is responsible for these and other judgments in terms of culpability, God readily admits to being the causative agency.6
Still, if we would finally answer the question "Does He or doesn't He?" we must penetrate beyond these examples of divine retributive intervention resulting in the first death and address the issue of the second death. To do that, we turn to the cross.
At the Cross
In all of history Christ is the only person who has ever experienced the second death. Hebrews 2:9 tells us that "He, by the grace of God, . . . taste[d] death for everyone" (NKJV). Earth's overflowing cemeteries plainly testify that the corporate death here referred to must be the second death, the eternal loss of "both soul and body" (Matt. 10:28). Because the Bible rejects the possibility of an ethereal, disembodied soul, this "soul death" can occur only in the context of a concurrent physical death, all of which Christ experienced.
What caused this total dissolution of Christ's body and soul? Did life cease to exist merely because the Father passively withdrew His sustenance and protection, abandoning Christ to our sin, which somehow consumed Him, as it were, from the inside out? Or did a supernatural force from outside of Christ penetrate to His sin-drenched core like a sin-seeking missile to the heart, searing into oblivion His very identity?
Ellen White brings Calvary's complex interplay of dynamics into focus with this poignant description: "The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. . . . The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. . . . It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God."7
The body and soul of Christ were caught and crushed in an unrelenting three-way vise grip composed of "the sense of sin," "the wrath of God against sin," and "the withdrawal of the divine countenance." This means that, not only did God abandon Christ to experience the full, agonizing measure of our guilt, He actively expressed His justifiable wrath against sin toward His own Son. But how could a loving Father do such a thing?
At the cross, a mysterious transformation took place. As Christ was made "to be sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21, NIV), He stood before the Father "in a different attitude from that in which He had ever stood before."8 In response, the Father "assume[d] toward the Sin Bearer the character of a judge, divesting Himself of the endearing qualities of a father."9Consummating the acted parable He had instructed Abraham to initiate with Isaac so many years before, the Father heartbrokenly unsheathed the sword of divine justice against His own beloved Son (see Zech. 13:7). Yet, in all this they were one, because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Cor. 5:19).
One Question Remains
One question remains to be answered: What about the lost? What will they experience in the context of the second death, and who is responsible for it? Again, the answer is found at the cross, because the cross is a virtual mirror image of the final judgment. "Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin."10
Because Christ has already "tasted death for everyone," the lost die a tragically unnecessary, avoidable death. In rejecting His sacrifice in their behalf, they cause their guilt and condemnation to revert back upon themselves, and "at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death."11 By refusing to identify with Christ, the source of life and love, they have, by default, identified themselves with sin, becoming its virtual personification. And God, who is a consuming fire to sin wherever found, must finally consume them for the good of the universe.
One last question still remains to be answered, and that is, What's the point? Why spend so much time and energy trying to understand something so tragic as whether and how God takes life in executing justice? Why not spend all our time and energy focusing on His love and grace?
It's a good question. And it's answered, I think, by this insightful statement: "Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, 'Behold your God.' The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of [God's] character of love."12
We have been called to declare to our dying world, "Behold your God." Not by presenting an ineffectual, artificially sweetened caricature, but by allowing God to reveal Himself in the totality of His character of self-emptying love. We're called to represent Him as He truly is--a God who loves with such jealous devotion that He hates the sin that hurts us, and consumes it with a righteous wrath. A God who took into Himself the full measure of that justifiable wrath and allowed it to consume Him, that we might be spared and set free.
What more could Love do to win our affections?13
_________________________
1 Not his real name.
2 Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets,
p. 33.
3 Ibid., p. 34.
4 White, Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing, p. 62.
5 The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 480.
6 See Gen. 6:5-7, 11-13; Gen. 19:13-25; Rev. 15, 16, respectively.
7 White, The Desire of Ages, p. 753.
8 Ibid., p. 686.
9 White, Testimonies to Ministers, p. 246.
10 White, Testimonies to the Church, vol. 2,
p. 210.
11 Ibid.
12 White, Christ's Object Lessons, p. 415.
13 Thanks to my friend, Jennifer Schwirzer, for wrestling through this complex issue with me.
_________________________
Leslie Kay writes from Kingman, Arizona.

[AndrewG]

A friend of mine sent me an article titled, "Does God Kill?" (which I've also posted on this thread). It was published by Adventist Review on-line version http://www.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html  and was written by Leslie Kay writes from Kingman, Arizona.

I have briefly skimmed it, nodding appreciatively in several places in agreement, except for the end section which claims that God does finally destroy sinners.  I want to read it in more depth later, but one point really stuck out as I skim read  it.

I think it is a positive aspect of the SDA church to permit controversial opinions to be published.  Other organisations aren't so willing to do that.  And I'm really pleased that the Review published such a positive article about God's character, but I still think they have a deeper understanding of God's character awaiting them.

In response to Leslie's article, I had the following thoughts.

I quote from the article:

Because Christ has already "tasted death for everyone," the lost die a tragically unnecessary, avoidable death. In rejecting His sacrifice in their behalf, they cause their guilt and condemnation to revert back upon themselves, and "at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death." By refusing to identify with Christ, the source of life and love, they have, by default, identified themselves with sin, becoming its virtual personification. And God, who is a consuming fire to sin wherever found, must finally consume them for the good of the universe.

I know the beginning of this paragraph captures a quote from Ellen White but I believe the author of the Review article concludes with a traditional assumption rather than a Biblical truth.

I don't believe that God tells every person, including His prophets all the truth at one time, but things are revealed as people can bear them. Even Jesus told His disciples, "I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear them now."  Perhaps we are able to bear this truth now and the Lord is teaching us about His character, which Ellen White states (as written in the Review article), "The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of [God's] character of love." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 415.

I believe that the Bible teaches us that there is no doubt that it is sin that destroys the sinner and that it is not an act of God.  "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23.  Note that Paul does not say, "the wages of sin is death which is the merciful gift that God gives to the wicked, but the merciful gift of God to the righteous is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."  If it doesn't say it, how is it possible that we always interpret it in that way?

When His creative power of life flashes out over the earth to remake it again, the sinful flesh (the death defect is in every cell of the body) simply ceases to exist for God is a consuming power to sin. His life causes death to cease to exist. Just as light causes darkness to cease to exist without any murderous intentions; just as heat destroys cold; just as life destroys death, in this way sinners cease to exist. God does not kill - never has and never will, but He also will not protect those who are determined to remain self-serving - who choose to die (suicide) rather than return God's love.

At the second coming, the Bible tells us repeatedly that "this body of sinful flesh" must be changed, and that "this corruption must put on incorruption" that this "mortal must put on immortality."  The reason that the saints are not consumed when Jesus returns is because they have "in the twinkling of an eye"  "put on incorruption" - ie they have a new body which does not have sin/death in every cell.

Recall Ellen White's experience recorded in Early Writings, p 54  (End of the 2300 Days)

"I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist."

If Ellen White, a repentant sinner, a born-again Christian, with the spirit of Jesus abiding in her, would have been instantly non-existent if she saw the Father's glory.  It was not sin in her mind, or cherished sin or any known sin that would have killed Ellen White, but the fact that was totally out of her control - her sinful physical body.

When Adam and Eve sinned, their bodies were changed.  The bright lights surrounding their previous holy bodies was extinguished and they experienced a physical bodily change.  This was the instant that sin was written into every cell of their bodies and hence into all progeny that were born from that time in the human family.

The human race was then doomed to die as humanity was separated from God and sin was programmed into human cells and this sin would cause their own death -body and mind.  As a remedy to the hopeless human condition,  Christ took sinful flesh upon Himself. A sinful body was prepared for Him so He could experience/taste death for every man (everyone).  It is "this body of sin and death" that Jesus took to the cross.  Christ defeated sin 'in the flesh.'

Finally, in the Bible, James tells us in James, that sin,  when it is finished (or mature), brings forth death.  It is sin, not God, that brings forth death.  God is the creator and wishes that we would come to Him that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

When Jesus cried over Jerusalem, He wasn't crying crocodile tears.  And He had nothing whatsoever to do with the destruction of the Jews who had rejected Him.  Why must we think evil of God when Jesus set us so clear an example?  The very seeds of death are in selfishness - which is sin.  It is in our blood.  It is in our body, but this fatal flaw will be repaired when Jesus comes to protect those who want to be with Him in an unselfish world.

I know that Christians all claim to be convinced of God's loving character, but it puzzles me how, after all this evidence in the Bible people can still accuse God of killing people? 

I am very encouraged that the Review published the article and I hope that in future they will continue to accept more of God's very special message until the earth is lightened with the glory of the 4th angel's message - the latter rain - and people are truly converted, ready to meet Jesus in His glorified body, having a transformed body - recreated in His own likeness.

What does anyone else think about this article?  Do my comments seem sound, logical and Biblical to you?

What u have said sounds completely logical to me

[AndrewG]

Very interesting well presented and makes total sense God consumes the sin in the sinner resulting in there death

[Sherlene]

Thanks Andrew for your feedback.  I can't see it any other way.